The best online Debate website - DebateIsland.com! The only Online Debate Website with Casual, Persuade Me, Formalish, and Formal Online Debate formats. We’re the Leading Online Debate website. Debate popular topics, Debate news, or Debate anything! Debate online for free!
My undocumented friend: Carlos does the work few in Vermont want to do
in Immigration
Debra AI Prediction
Arguments
  Considerate: 76%  
  Substantial: 25%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 100%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 11.84  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 96%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 68%  
  Substantial: 65%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 98%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 10.78  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 89%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 80%  
  Substantial: 93%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 98%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 12.96  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 99%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 56%  
  Substantial: 71%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 100%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 7.26  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 98%  
  Learn More About Debra
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
  Considerate: 49%  
  Substantial: 79%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 97%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 10.16  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 94%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 85%  
  Substantial: 51%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 100%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 9.5  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 99%  
  Learn More About Debra
he clearly contributed to American and his community, if he gets deported, his farm and others could suffer.
  Considerate: 54%  
  Substantial: 47%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 100%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 10.58  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 99%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 88%  
  Substantial: 89%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 98%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 12.06  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 99%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 61%  
  Substantial: 80%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 96%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 10.44  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 99%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 41%  
  Substantial: 35%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 94%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 7.58  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 99%  
  Learn More About Debra
http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world_countries.htm
https://www.reference.com/geography/mexico-third-world-country-ac77a931a28e3a8
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World
http://learnersdictionary.com/definition/third world
https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Mexico-viewed-as-a-third-world-country
All these references will explain and prove why Mexico is a "3rd World Country" but this is setting aside the fact that Mexico has no sovereignty.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
  Considerate: 93%  
  Substantial: 50%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 95%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 9.28  
  Sources: 5  
  Relevant (Beta): 85%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 76%  
  Substantial: 60%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 100%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 11.96  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 98%  
  Learn More About Debra
I don't agree that we should deport 11 million people - it's inhumane.
- Walt Disney
  Considerate: 65%  
  Substantial: 37%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 100%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 10.82  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 99%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 94%  
  Substantial: 55%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 100%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 4.06  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 82%  
  Learn More About Debra
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
  Considerate: 76%  
  Substantial: 87%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 95%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 9.06  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 72%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 91%  
  Substantial: 14%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 67%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 3.24  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 78%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 83%  
  Substantial: 93%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 98%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 9.16  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 98%  
  Learn More About Debra
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
  Considerate: 79%  
  Substantial: 85%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 93%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 10.04  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 68%  
  Learn More About Debra
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
  Considerate: 70%  
  Substantial: 26%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 95%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 9.46  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 95%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 87%  
  Substantial: 24%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 64%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 3  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 84%  
  Learn More About Debra
He makes it a personal story about his parents.
I don't think though that it gives him the right to defend illegal immigration, although It makes sense to endorse immigration in general sith his story.
http://money.cnn.com/video/technology/2017/03/22/alexis-ohanian-immigration.cnnmoney/
  Considerate: 83%  
  Substantial: 60%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 93%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 9.88  
  Sources: 1  
  Relevant (Beta): 71%  
  Learn More About Debra
- Walt Disney
  Considerate: 66%  
  Substantial: 71%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 96%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 11.02  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 84%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 97%  
  Substantial: 45%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 100%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 2.4  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 6%  
  Learn More About Debra
regarding Carlos, it is sad that liberals are making this issue about being "a good person" instead of looking at the core issue of it being illegal and having a serious financial burden on American tax payers.
I am not saying lets immediately start mass deportations, or argue against immigration in general, but tolerating illegal actions are just not fair to American tax payers (I am sure that Carlos is a great person..maybe)
  Considerate: 87%  
  Substantial: 74%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 100%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 12.34  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 83%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 89%  
  Substantial: 16%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 50%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 2.36  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 95%  
  Learn More About Debra
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
  Considerate: 94%  
  Substantial: 49%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 93%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 8.52  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 46%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 89%  
  Substantial: 16%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 50%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 2.36  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 95%  
  Learn More About Debra
"Americanism not Globalism, will be our credo." ~Donald Trump
"A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill
  Considerate: 59%  
  Substantial: 39%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 96%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 4.94  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 97%  
  Learn More About Debra
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
The Animals
  Considerate: 56%  
  Substantial: 85%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 92%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 6.84  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 86%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 21%  
  Substantial: 99%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 96%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 9.5  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 99%  
  Learn More About Debra
From the economical considerations, he should not, since his work benefits the land he lives on tremendously, and all people living in his state and, by extension, in all states - are better off for him employing so many undocumented immigrants.
This is the case where the law conflicts with practicality. What should be prioritized, blindly following the law no matter what it is, or focusing on the practicality and bending the law when needed? I think it depends on the personal views. Mine would be somewhere in between.
  Considerate: 95%  
  Substantial: 94%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 95%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 11.7  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 98%  
  Learn More About Debra
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
The Animals
  Considerate: 94%  
  Substantial: 94%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 93%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 11.48  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 97%  
  Learn More About Debra
Farming is an activity that has a tremendous return value. One farmer can feed thousands people with modern technology. Carlos and a thousand of his employees, each working on farms, can easily feed over a million Americans all by themselves.
Australia had a program in early 2000-s (maybe still has) that promoted immigration on a special visa type with the goal to settle the central area of the continent. The government offered heavy subsidies to anyone willing to settle the lands, work on farms - with some requirements, such as agricultural education and/or experience. The program did not do well, probably because it was not advertised properly - but it is the kind of idea that separates a smart government from a narrowminded one.
Encouraging people like Carlos to hire employees to do farming is one of the best ways of achieving economical prosperity. I think the US would do well by issuing a certain quota for this type of immigrants, and pardoning/legalizing those already involved in this activity.
  Considerate: 97%  
  Substantial: 100%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 95%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 12.86  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 98%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 69%  
  Substantial: 32%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 95%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 9.78  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 95%  
  Learn More About Debra
I believe there is already a system in the U.S. for seasonal migrant workers, that is legal.....
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
The Animals
  Considerate: 92%  
  Substantial: 27%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 95%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 6.46  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 99%  
  Learn More About Debra
This is the level of ridiculousness we're at with the argument that "But they're working jobs that we need to have workers for".
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
  Considerate: 83%  
  Substantial: 75%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 96%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 10.5  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 72%  
  Learn More About Debra
Maybe you should take another look on immigration restrictions and ask yourself why they are needed in the first place. What do immigration laws aim to achieve? What is their purpose?
Then ask yourself, "Did Carlos fulfill that purpose?" If the answer is "yes", then the immigration laws need to be modified to reflect this state of affairs. If the answer is "no", then you would be right - but I strongly disagree that in this case the answer is "no". Carlos brought more economical benefit to the US than the vast majority of legal immigrants did.
  Considerate: 94%  
  Substantial: 91%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 89%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 9.16  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 99%  
  Learn More About Debra
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
The Animals
  Considerate: 80%  
  Substantial: 78%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 89%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 8.8  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 89%  
  Learn More About Debra
There was a time when drinking alcohol was illegal in the US. It caused massive economical problems and led to incredible growth of the shadow economy - but nonetheless, it was illegal. People did it anyway, in more massive quantities than in the lack of prohibition. Do you think it wrong that the police did not enforce this law as much as it could? I do not.
Laws are not absolute, they can be changed and they can be ignored, when necessary. Rationality often does not converge on the currently active laws. When laws are rational, then these two can coexist in peace. When they are not, then you have to choose between following the rational considerations and following the law - and I personally choose practical solutions over abstract legal dogmas.
That said, here I advocate for changing the law, not for bypassing the law. Bypassing the law only becomes necessary in oppressive states like China, where legal systems are based on the whims of the current authoritarian regime and not on practicality. The US, while having certain legal aberrations, overall is pretty practical in its lawmaking process.
  Considerate: 93%  
  Substantial: 100%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 96%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 11.32  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 100%  
  Learn More About Debra
I would agree with most of that, but to claim we need illegal alien workers I don't believe that to be true. It's much like the "need" for a $15 an hour minimum wage, see how well that is going? Farmers will automate anyway, it's been happening. If they can't exploit illegals then the automation will happen faster. You know this and the claims that we will starve w/o the illegals is just not true.
https://www.agriculture.com/technology/robotics/how-automation-will-transform-farming
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
The Animals
  Considerate: 75%  
  Substantial: 85%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 92%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 7.96  
  Sources: 1  
  Relevant (Beta): 94%  
  Learn More About Debra
We do not need many things that are, nonetheless, desirable to have due to their economical benefits. We do not need people drinking alcohol - but it so happens that letting people drink alcohol leads to a stronger economy. We do not need the international trade - but the international trade happens to be incredibly beneficial for promoting business competition and for improving the end user product quality. We do not need immigration - but immigrants happen to diversify the economy, leading to a substantial increase of its growth.
Do we need Carlos? No. Do we want him here? I do, and the economy does as well. The law does not, which simply means that the law has not kept up with time and needs to be modified.
As far as automation goes, it is a different topic entirely. Automation will never replace the need for human input, until we have developed a self-modifying artificial intelligence - and that is the moment when humanity as we know it will end anyway. The growth of automation will require that people update their skills to better match the working environment, and illegal immigrants tend to be pretty inventive in this regard and will adapt easily, from my perspective.
  Considerate: 93%  
  Substantial: 98%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 95%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 11.68  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 94%  
  Learn More About Debra
you say the economy needs him, but I don't see proof of that and actually see proof saying we don't, hence the automation that I brought up. If there is proof that there are economic benefits to have illegal no skilled workers I haven't seen any that out weights the costs.
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
The Animals
  Considerate: 89%  
  Substantial: 95%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 94%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 12  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 99%  
  Learn More About Debra
No, I said that the economy wants him, because he benefits it - but it does not "need" him; there are very few things that economy really needs for its continued existence. If individual economical freedoms are guaranteed, then the society will do the rest, and the economy will be fine. Restricting Carlos' economical freedoms, given how much he already contributes to the economy, would be counter-productive.
I also do not see what economical costs are there. Costs to whom? Whose wealth does Carlos' farm takes away? He and his workers work on the farms, produce goods and trade them on a free market. If there are some hidden costs involved that are not present in case of legal workers, then I am not aware of them.
  Considerate: 96%  
  Substantial: 99%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 95%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 10.36  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 99%  
  Learn More About Debra
as I explained if he has a family they are using tax funded services like schools, roads etc And since he's not paying taxes towards any of that he is a drain on the economy.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/09/trump-clinton-immigration-economy-unemployment-jobs-214216
https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2018/02/26/how-american-citizens-finance-health-care-for-undocumented-immigrants/#e058d8a12c47
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/jan/23/donald-trump/does-immigration-policy-impose-300-billion-annuall/
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
The Animals
  Considerate: 94%  
  Substantial: 55%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 97%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 10.3  
  Sources: 3  
  Relevant (Beta): 30%  
  Learn More About Debra
First, it is not true that all illegal immigrants do not pay taxes. All illegal immigrants pay the sales tax, and their employers typically deduct the income tax from their salaries in order to fulfill the requirements on legal accountability of business owners. From reading about Carlos' business model, it is obvious that his employees pay taxes. Do not forget that this is Vermont, a state with very heavy business accountability laws by the US standards.
Second, farmers in the US get a lot of subsidies from the government. These illegal immigrants obviously do not, hence they are already doing work that many other Americans get financial assistance for, without such assistance.
Third, if they work farms, then chances are they live in the wilderness, where roads are scarce, and schools are heavily underfunded. While their children's education may be funded from taxpayers' money, the fraction they take from the governmental funds is much smaller than that of the average American.
Fourth, they cannot even use roads for driving, since they cannot obtain a driver's license and probably are too poor to be able to afford a car.
All in all, especially in this particular case, the workers essentially put in as much work as Americans do on similar jobs and pay just as much in terms of taxes, but gain much less assistance from the government and get paid much less for their work by the private employer. If in this case the benefits do not outweigh the costs, then in case of American farmers the ratio is even worse - so, again, illegal immigrants doing this work benefit the economy more (or hurt it less, if you want to interpret it this way) than American citizens.
Where your argument would be applicable is shadow economy, with arrangements like "You sneak into the kitchen every morning and cook some food until the evening, and I leave you $80 in the closet at the end of the day."
  Considerate: 88%  
  Substantial: 100%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 97%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 13  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 100%  
  Learn More About Debra
how can a business pay taxes for an illegal worker? They deduct income tax so your friend is filing a tax return? How do you take taxes and file a return w/o a social security number? Illegals get caught by driving w/o a licence all the time.
Every case is unique so I can't really speak to the specifics all that much, but you rationalize what he is doing, which I get, but the bottom line is illegal is illegal. What of the many who go through the process, a very difficult one (probably doesn't need to be that way but that's a different topic), how is that fair to them? What are his intentions to live illegally forever? Is he learning English? Trying to become legal?
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
The Animals
  Considerate: 80%  
  Substantial: 80%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 91%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 8.02  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 82%  
  Learn More About Debra
Here is a general description of how it works:
https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/how-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-federal-taxes-an-explainer/
We are just running around the circles here. My point is that his workers being illegal is less beneficial to the economy, compared to the alternative scenario where they are legal, hence the law should be changed in a way that considers them legal residents. That is what the immigration laws are about: assuring that the arrivals benefit the economy.
Maybe some "economical incentive amnesty" law could be implemented: if someone is residing in the US illegally, but turns out to bring a lot of profit to the economy by doing work that otherwise is not considered illegal, then they can apply for a permanent residence status, and their previous status is exempted from being acted upon. I believe Australia used to, or still does, have such a system.
  Considerate: 96%  
  Substantial: 100%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 97%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 13.4  
  Sources: 2  
  Relevant (Beta): 100%  
  Learn More About Debra
I do agree that reforms are very long overdue. And I also agree it should be merit based like you indicated. I'd be very happy to adopt or duplicate the Australia immigration system.
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
The Animals
  Considerate: 89%  
  Substantial: 82%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 89%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 8.72  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 90%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 82%  
  Substantial: 61%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 98%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 7.44  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 59%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 60%  
  Substantial: 98%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 95%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 9.92  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 99%  
  Learn More About Debra